Episode 1416
ATH Investigates: Are some cabinet companies selling you maple but shipping birch?
We sit down with Spencer Sheehan from Sheehan & Associates about what could be a huge consumer issue with what appears to be birch cabinetry being sold as a more expensive maple cabinetry. We jump into this subject and find out who could be affected. IF you think you might have some of this cabinetry Spencer Sheehan would like to talk with you. Note: Spencer Sheehan at the time of recording of this episode is not working with the KCMA or any other organization.
About Spencer: Spencer Sheehan has been an attorney since 2012.
Fordham Law School – J.D. – 2011
Undergraduate Degree – Georgetown University – 2002
Admissions and licensed as Attorney in New York State, Registration Number:4942520
For more information about this subject Spenser Sheehan can be reached here: https://spencersheehan.com/
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Transcript
[00:00:06] Spencer Sheehan: house. It involves, uh, the passing off of birch cabinets as napal. And these issues came to my attention through, uh, various, uh, decisions and in investigation by the Commerce Department at the behest of the Kitchen Cabinet Manufacturer's Association into the dumping of. Chinese cabinets below cost in the US market to the detriment of cabinet manufacturers in America and American jobs.
[:[00:00:55] Intro: when it comes
[:[00:00:58] Eric Goranson: your home, there is
[:[00:01:00] Intro: we've got you covered. This is. On the house.
[:[00:01:06] Eric Goranson: This is where we talk everything about your home every single week. Thank you for joining us. You know, I've got a special guest here in the studio. You know, this was kind of interesting. Let me preface this. When I see something pop up on social media where people are asking the right questions, and of course I'm like, Alright, we got to dive into this and figured out cuz we're getting into a passion of.
[:[00:01:37] Spencer Sheehan: Thank you Eric for having me.
[:[00:01:48] Eric Goranson: What is this about the cabin industry and you know, being in the industry for 30 years, it's something that I have a passion about, you know, and there was this paperwork that I saw that came around here, oh, six months [00:02:00] ago or so, and I read, but I didn't read in the detail that you did, and you caught some super important details.
[:[00:02:32] Eric Goranson: The parking lot scam is over on the side. That's a big deal on its own, but they're there to investigate a murder. You know, your dive here, you figured out something very interesting.
[:[00:02:59] Spencer Sheehan: Birch [00:03:00] cabinets as maple and these issues came to my attention through, uh, various, uh, decisions and an investigation by the Commerce Department at the behest of the kitchen cabinet manufacturers. Association into the dumping of Chinese cabinets below cost in the US market to the detriment of cabinet manufacturers in America and American jobs.
[:[00:04:00] Spencer Sheehan: And I was quite surprised at this, and I started to look a little closer and sure enough that's, you know, um, You know, Right. Right there in front of you and there's no denying it. And you know, it's something that in my, uh, efforts to get more information about this from the participants, uh, Kitchen Cabinet Manufacturers Association and various, uh, large cabinet companies, nobody really, um, you know, would respond to me or, you know, just, uh, even acknowledge.
[:[00:04:45] Eric Goranson: You know what's interesting cuz like I've said, I spent a lot of time in the kitchen and bath industry. I've worked for cabin manufacturers, I've worked for, you know, my own design firm. So it's something that I've had really near and dear to my heart and it, it's very interesting.
[:[00:05:20] Eric Goranson: Correct. That, That's
[:[00:05:47] Spencer Sheehan: They said basically, you know, uh, or the judge said basically to the commerce department. Why are you even concerned about, you know, consumers being misled? Your job is to, [00:06:00] you know, be concerned about, you know, this investigation, which involves the, uh, , the below cost Chinese cabinets being sold to, uh, you know, in the American market.
[:[00:06:29] Eric Goranson: Well, Spencer, you know, you have a long history with your company chasing down companies out there that have said, Hey, I'm selling you or marketing you product A, but you're either getting product A minus or maybe even product C, and you've done some pretty big cases.
[:[00:06:45] Spencer Sheehan: is an interest of mine. You're, you're exactly right. And you know, it, it's ha something unfortunately that occurs in any area where, uh, you know, a company is selling something to [00:07:00] others, whether it's selling, um, you know, products, you know, food or beverages or car parts, or, uh, equipment, and it's, you know, often, um, You know, the case where they will sell you something that is maybe a product, um, that's often a lower quality, slightly, but often it's not so significant to make you realize that it is not what it says because if it is, you know, often, you know, the trick and you know, is to make sure that the deception is.
[:[00:08:09] Spencer Sheehan: And it's not fair to the companies that are selling, you know, what they are, you know, advertising and, you know, that's something that should, you know, just it is, uh, essential market. Yeah. I mean, there's no reason for it. I mean, people don't deserve that.
[:[00:08:34] Eric Goranson: I mean, there's companies right now that I can jump online that are major manufacturers out there. I'm just gonna leave it at that, cuz I don't wanna, I don't wanna get into the name calling thing and get into that whole battle, at least right here in the show. But there are major companies out there that are selling chemistry parts that I can look at just in the picture and go, All right, you're calling that maple.
[:[00:08:57] Spencer Sheehan: Well, I'd love if off air you [00:09:00] can, um, tell me a little bit more about that. And, you know, I don't want to, I don't want to get you involved in any name calling and I understand that, but I am grateful for your knowledge of this industry because to the outsider, somebody who doesn't have, you know, basically any experience in the home improvement or cabinetry.
[:[00:09:31] Eric Goranson: my. Have you subscribed to the podcast? Make sure you have and we'll be right back after these important messages with Spencer. We got a lot more to talk about when around the house
[:[00:09:55] Intro: What's up? This is Dick hand Satchel.
[:[00:09:59] Intro: and [00:10:00] you are listening to Around the House with Eric G. Yeah,
[:[00:10:06] Intro: you should too.
[:[00:10:18] Intro: try again. Welcome back
[:[00:10:36] Eric Goranson: So let's get back to Spencer and talk about how some people are buying maple cabinets, but they're actually getting birch. You know, that's what's interesting with cabinetry, and I know if one of our listeners is sitting here going, Oh, birch maple, who cares? You know, Maple is a premium wood as far as cabinetry, and it's got a lot of really cool aspects to it, you know?
[:[00:11:14] Eric Goranson: But birch on the other hand, it takes stain really. It's a softer wood and one of the problems with it, especially on some of the birch species, is you do a cabinet door out of it. Let's say sometimes it can turn a little green, almost like it's got a grassing on it. There can be some green tinges all over, so it's completely different product.
[:[00:11:56] Spencer Sheehan: No, that's, that's exactly right. And [00:12:00] you know, it's basic, uh, question of telling people, you know, the truth about what they're getting. As we discussed, it's, it's impossible for, you know, the end purchaser to, to know this. And even as I mentioned, for the contractors who are selling you this, they, because they don't know, because the origins are, um, obscured from the beginning.
[:[00:12:45] Eric Goranson: maple. You know what's also interesting is it's not just the cabinet fronts.
[:[00:13:09] Eric Goranson: That's prefinished. But if you grab those sales material out on the brochure, it says Maple Interior. It's not maple, it's birch plywood. So there's a lot of it out there. That's exactly, you know, it's still, when it comes down to, it's not maple, it's birch, but they call it maple and the marketing materials all for the same price.
[:[00:13:57] Spencer Sheehan: Uh, you know, mainly with respect [00:14:00] to the kitchen cabinet. Um, you know, domestic manufacturers because, you know, we all benefit by having, you know, these, uh, manufacturers in this country by, you know, making sure that our products are safe. They don't have, you know, the poor Malahide Meine and, you know, all these other toxic chemicals that, uh, you know, may be used in China that, you know, can have long term health consequences when they're used in, you know, American home.
[:[00:14:37] Eric Goranson: Well, I wanna jump into the K cma, the Kitchen Cabinet Manufacturers Association here for a second. Are there brands that you've run into now with, uh, this core paperwork that, uh, you know, people might be scratching their heads going, you know, it showed up in the paperwork from the government, Maybe brands we should be talking.
[:[00:15:26] Spencer Sheehan: Now, I, I believe that's a, you know, a Chinese conglomerate. However, what I tried to figure out what you mentioned is about how does this, you know, filter down to the customers. Well, Dion Mason Woodworking is connected or somehow affiliated with a company called j and k Cabinet. They're a familiar brand.
[:[00:16:22] Spencer Sheehan: You know, most people who get cabinets, they might have a contractor. You know, get in, the contractor will get it from j and k. Um, so it's, it's challenging for, you know, somebody to know, uh, well are my cabinets from j and k? Because how, you know, when you buy cabinets, you know, you might get maybe, um, an invoice or something from, you know, the, uh, the contractor, but.
[:[00:17:03] Eric Goranson: sometimes cabinet manufacturers, And I don't know specifically if j and K is. But I'll do a little research. I'll ask around.
[:[00:17:34] Eric Goranson: So even sometimes you'll find it maybe on the bottom of a drawer box. So you take the drawer out, pop it over, and there'll be a sticker in there.
[:[00:17:57] Spencer Sheehan: You have to, you. Go [00:18:00] behind the TV is scary. You know, you have that, that nest of wires and dust kicking up there. You need to wear like a, a mask because of
[:[00:18:13] Spencer Sheehan: Brit. Right, exactly. And you know, now, yes, technically, you know, you could probably find.
[:[00:18:26] Eric Goranson: if you want to contact me, head over to around the house online.com and you can hit the message button right there and it'll go right into my inbox. And I'll get back with you around the house or return just after these important messages.
[:[00:18:50] Spencer Sheehan: Keel, the middle Cowboy from Keel, the Ron Keel Band and Steeler. We are rocking around the house
[:[00:19:05] Eric Goranson: Welcome back to The Round the House Show. Now we've been talking about some consumer protection issues, especially when it comes to cabinetry. Now let's get back to the
[:[00:19:17] Spencer Sheehan: Um, you know, seldom it might be imprinted on there. , I don't think that, you know, the typical, uh, you know, cabinet user is going to easily find that mm-hmm. so they're not, you know, really gonna know. And, you know, for somebody, Look, uh, you know, I'm sure though that there are people who, you know, care about these things and they do know that, Oh yeah, my cabinet.
[:[00:20:07] Spencer Sheehan: I suspect like many things. You know, this is just the tip of the iceberg, meaning that, um, it might be what we see, but. If this is something that one company is uh, doing, then I'm sure that it's something that's, uh, prevalent. Yeah. And it so happens that, uh, Dion Mason Woodworking and it's Jane K affiliates is what showed up on, on the radar.
[:[00:20:59] Eric Goranson: Yeah, there's a [00:21:00] handful 'em out there, but there's a lot of people like J and k and I think there's other people from these guys that they distribute to as well, You know?
[:[00:21:26] Spencer Sheehan: No, that's, that's exactly right. And um, you know, it's, you know, they're sort of, um, Yeah, right, right there. And, and you know, whether or not they, uh, market or label their items as, you know, being by j and k, they may not, because a lot of times, you know, with respect to, you know, third party or sort of private, they may, you know, call it a private label or something and you know, the end user will have no idea where the product came from.
[:[00:22:13] Eric Goranson: Well, and there's another thing too, and I don't know if these guys, you know, Cabinets to Go specifically is doing long here.
[:[00:22:38] Eric Goranson: Now you remember Lumber Liquidators had a huge problem and it was seen all over CBS 60 Minutes, where 60 Minutes went overseas into China and found that a bunch of lumber liquidators at the time was bringing in flooring that was stamped, that it was carb compliant. You know, the California Air Resource Board requirements of no formaldehyde were low from aldehyde, and they're having formaldehyde glue put in there, but the boxes were [00:23:00] stamped, carb compliant.
[:[00:23:17] Eric Goranson: It's out there. So there's no debate on that. Check Google 60 Minutes to a bunch of stories on it. So it's on YouTube, easy to find. But when Lumber Liquidators and him parted ways, he'd already started Cabinets to Go and now he's running cabinets to.
[:[00:23:51] Spencer Sheehan: And ultimately the, uh, you know, the price is paid by consumers, whether it's, you know, having flooring. You know, [00:24:00] is made with formaldehyde in contravention. State regulations, which, uh, prohibit it or in, you know, in this instance, um, passing off, you know, cabinets is one species of wood when it's actually a lower species of of wood.
[:[00:24:41] Eric Goranson: You know where they weren't paying for exports, so maybe they were sending over religious reasons or whatever. So for instance of, let's go hypothetical on this. Let's say you can't take a species of wood coming outta like Malaysia and send it to the us, but if you send it over to South Korea as a legitimate import [00:25:00] for like religious reasons or something like that, then you import it over to them.
[:[00:25:21] Eric Goranson: Breaking those rules and of course bringing in a legal hardwoods that were not supposed to be used in flooring coming outta those countries.
[:[00:25:44] Spencer Sheehan: Um, , you know, harvesting and using it. And it's just unfortunate when, you know, when that happens. And too often companies, they accept, uh, you know, such penalties and fines and public, uh, outrage as just a [00:26:00] cost of doing business. And it's, it's unfortunate that, that, you know, should be the case.
[:[00:26:11] Eric Goranson: And you and I can chat more offline about this, that there's a lot that's not suitable for radio podcasts. But I really wanna say that I think if you're a consumer out there and you're looking at your maple cabinets that you know came from one of these companies and you're concerned about it personally, you should do a little more research.
[:[00:26:33] Yeah.
[:[00:26:52] Spencer Sheehan: Uh, but there are times when you know that that doesn't happen. And, you know, if, [00:27:00] um, you know, a consumer or customer is able to, you know, take a look at their cabinets and maybe wants. You know, figure out a little bit more about, you know, their origins, that they should do that. And, you know, part of the, uh, way to do that might be to have a look at the underside of, you know, the cabinets.
[:[00:27:42] Spencer Sheehan: And hopefully, you know, it's a situation where, yeah, the person they paid for, uh, Maple Cabinets and that's what they received. But it's also very likely that, you know, um, that that is not, uh, what, what happened and how, uh, [00:28:00] prevalent it is. Um, it seems to be pretty prevalent. Uh, you know, because from what I've gathered from reading these.
[:[00:28:14] Eric Goranson: We'll be back to wrap this up just after these important messages. Don't go anywhere.
[:[00:29:06] Eric Goranson: Welcome back to the Round the House, Show you to me. It's kind of fun to be able to jump into a subject like this early on and see if we can make a difference.
[:[00:29:18] Spencer Sheehan: to be pretty prevalent. Uh, you know, because from what I've gathered from reading these, uh, government papers, Dian Mason is uh, one of the largest exporters. And j and k cabinetry as, uh, their US affiliate is, uh, quite, uh, entrenched in this market.
[:[00:30:11] Eric Goranson: in.
[:[00:30:28] Eric Goranson: And most people look at it and go, Ah, who cares? But it meets their standards, which means, and I've worked with cabinet companies that were K CMA certified. And so some of the things that happen is that when you're a certified K CMA cabinet company, K CMA has the right to come in and pull a cabinet randomly off the production line and go test it by seeing how strong the shelf is and all these different things to see if that cabinet meets their criteria.
[:[00:31:07] Spencer Sheehan: Yeah. And then those types of things are important to ensuring confidence in. You know, this particular market and, you know, it's, it's great that they're able to, uh, to do that. And because in an ideal world, that would be something that's really the province of, uh, the government to do. Uh, but, you know, um, it's hard enough to get, you know, the government to do, um, You know, a lot of things that they should, so we leave it to a private industry to, to do, and it's great that I think that the K CMA is, uh, you know, on top of
[:[00:31:58] Eric Goranson: So in this case, the case CMA [00:32:00] came out and said they regard to announce that during its board meeting, That week. American Woodmark Master Brand Cabinets and Cabinet Works Group resigned from the association. And a lot of this, as they're saying, is based upon their fight against these imports from China.
[:[00:32:34] Eric Goranson: Later in the day they canceled the tour and they're like, Well, we're outta here. We're here for the tour. The board meeting was happening during that fall conference and after the vote, they called it a day. And usually they're jumping on buses and going to tour the place. Really. So Master brand canceled it and the rest of the meeting gets canceled and it's, uh, pretty crazy how that whole thing went
[:[00:32:56] Spencer Sheehan: Yeah. That, that. That's, you know, really interesting [00:33:00] and certainly worth, you know, keeping an eye on as, uh, you know, as things unfold. And it's unfortunate that, you know, companies should want part with the K CMA because they do a lot of good for, um, you know, American cabinet industry and you know, American consumers.
[:[00:33:33] Eric Goranson: So it's really interesting. I know that some of these companies, and I can say this cuz I've been there, I've seen it, I've heard it, I've been at the meetings. So this is firsthand knowledge and it's not even anything that they're under a non-disclosure agreement or anything that I've signed, but really a lot of these companies import cut parts for their lower end cabinet lines, So like their base model stuff.
[:[00:34:16] Spencer Sheehan: against that.
[:[00:34:47] Spencer Sheehan: Uh, folks about what it is, uh, that's going on in, in this area. So I thank you for that.
[:[00:35:06] Eric Goranson: They're selling products, you know, they, they're saying what they're. They're building a good or decent quality cabinet for a homeowner, and they're advertising what they're making, and I just don't like to have to go peek behind the curtain to see that maybe things aren't being what they're sold at.
[:[00:35:29] Spencer Sheehan: right. That, that should happen. And especially because most of, uh, you know, the companies play by the rules and it's terrible that there are, uh, You know, companies that, that don't, and then that, you know, they make it bad for everyone and it's just, uh, not, not fair.
[:[00:35:58] Eric Goranson: So if you've got [00:36:00] cabinets that you think is a homeowner or a contractor that you're suspect about, it's pretty easy to get some lab tests done and figure out what wood species you have in your hand.
[:[00:36:19] Spencer Sheehan: exactly right. And you know, they may not even need to do that because, you know, if we, you know, can possibly have a look and see well where, you know, what's the company that that came from and if we can track it down and link it to, you know, the companies identified in the public court documents, then you know, that's a certainly a good, a good starting point and.
[:[00:36:48] Eric Goranson: Perfect. Spencer, if somebody wanted to read you and they've got these cabinets, or they think they might be concerned at least about having these cabinets, what's the best way for people to find
[:[00:36:58] Spencer Sheehan: Well, thank you for [00:37:00] that. Um, the best way is to. Well send an email, um, to me or to go through, um, the website, spencer sheen.com. It has a submission page where somebody can, uh, submit their information along with their inquiry. Um, and, you know, my email is, uh, L e a ds spencer shehan.com and that's just one of the emails that I use is to manage the inflow of, uh, contacts.
[:[00:37:47] Eric Goranson: And it doesn't matter if you're listening to the National Radio Show of the podcast, you can find me anywhere out there on social media.
[:[00:38:06] Eric Goranson: So just make sure each cat's the podcast here, if you're listening on the radio. And that way you're not. Getting yourself in trouble out there, trying to write this information down as you're driving your car. Very good point, Spencer. Thanks for coming in today, man. And uh, keep me up to date on how this goes.
[:[00:38:27] Spencer Sheehan: much. I hope that, uh, maybe this, you know, will bear some fruit and if you hear anything, you know, don't hesitate to reach out and thank you for giving me the chance
[:[00:38:38] Eric Goranson: Thanks brother. Well, if you want more information about this, you can head over to around the house online.com and catch the podcast if you're on the radio and you can message me over there and just, uh, hit the contact us page and you'll be good to. That'll come right into my inbox. All right, everybody, have a great weekend.
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