Episode 1766
BEST OF: Healthy Homes with Andrew Pace and Caroline Blazovsky
In this best of episode we talk healthy homes with former co-host and America's Healthy Home Expert Caroline Blazovksy and worldwide expert of non-toxic and healthy building materials Guru Andy Pace from the Green Design Center. To find out more about Andy: https://www.thegreendesigncenter.com/ and for more on Caroline: https://healthyhomeexpert.com/
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Mentioned in this episode:
Baldwin Hardware
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Transcript
[00:00:27] Andrew Pace: Flooring is number one because it's a large area you're dealing with and. It's usually a thicker material. So thicker materials will off gas longer. When it comes to remodeling and renovating your home, there is a lot to know, but we've got
[:[00:00:45] Intro: is Around the
[:[00:00:49] Eric Goranson: I am enjoying an R& R weekend, getting some rest. And we have a great best of episode here with myself, my former co host, Caroline Blazowski, America's Healthy [00:01:00] Home Expert. And of course Healthy home expert, Andrew Pace. You don't want to miss this one. It's a classic and it's a good one. Let's talk healthy homes.
[:[00:01:24] Caroline Blazovsky: stoked. I am so excited. One, I consider him a friend, so I put him in the friend category, but as he's also a colleague.
[:[00:01:42] Andrew Pace: Wow. Thank you very much for that introduction. I hope I can live up to that.
[:[00:01:50] Eric Goranson: So if you don't know who Andrew Pace is, he is a legend out in the green design, green building world.
[:[00:02:03] Andrew Pace: let's build the story. All right. I guess my best way to go is my background. I got out of got of school. I actually, I, my family has owned a commercial construction material supply company that dates back to 1937 here in Wisconsin.
[:[00:02:18] Andrew Pace: And so growing up around the dinner table, we didn't really talk about school and sports and things like that. We talked about architects and contractors, and projects, , so I learned at an early age. All about the industry. And so get out of school. What do I want to do? I want to work for the family business.
[:[00:03:19] Andrew Pace: For animal clinics, for airplane hangers. And I was supplying the material for a below grade parking structure in Milwaukee, about three floors of parking below a 16 story condo complex. And this is 1992. So we all thought water basement safe, right?
[:[00:03:46] Andrew Pace: That's what we thought. And so we, but we still took precautions. We put up the plastic, we covered up all the air ducts just to make sure that no dust and no chemical fumes went throughout the building. After the primer [00:04:00] coat was applied, we started getting phone calls from people living in the condos above.
[:[00:04:33] Andrew Pace: And he complained. That's never good.
[:[00:04:37] Andrew Pace: No, I don't want to be on some list, think the big thing, the big event that happened was we actually had three of our own workers rushed to the hospital because of inhalation complications.
[:[00:04:57] Caroline Blazovsky: and scotch, I know you.
[:[00:05:14] Andrew Pace: And it's replacing it with this solvent. And so our workers couldn't breathe because of the codings we are providing. Put the job on hold ran around the country called every person I knew in the industry, if see if they can solve this issue. And we found a very small company in California called AFM, a more American formulated in manufacturing and AFM made codings.
[:[00:06:11] Eric Goranson: It comes down, especially on those big projects like that. It comes down to dollars and cents.
[:[00:06:16] Eric Goranson: If that, and I've done. High rise condominium projects. There are 43 floors before I was working on that for two years.
[:[00:06:31] Andrew Pace: they don't have to spend exactly right. And it's commercial construction too. So in, in residential construction, when you're working with a homeowner, It's their pocketbook and they can decide we're going to spend a little bit here, a little bit more here, a little bit less there.
[:[00:07:04] Eric Goranson: And then you've got also, you've got the architect that's on board there.
[:[00:07:33] Eric Goranson: And then you gotta have the contractor that's got to at least approve that. So it's an interesting mix. I've been in more than plenty of those meetings when I've been sitting there having that debate that you were probably having with that kind of stuff and everybody's pointing fingers. It's an interesting. It's an interesting way to go.
[:[00:08:04] Caroline Blazovsky: Whether it's a medical thing or it's a. It's a home thing, construction. This liability component really is a big thing. Cause I noticed nobody wants to take liability. Like I just had this conversation, we're doing a molder mediation project and they're like, okay, you have to write protocol for this because the molder mediation company doesn't want to take responsibility.
[:[00:08:48] Caroline Blazovsky: They get, people get afraid to try. I think the
[:[00:09:30] Andrew Pace: They
[:[00:09:33] Andrew Pace: right? Because it's very hard from a
[:[00:09:56] Caroline Blazovsky: I see them spend their whole life savings to fight, even though [00:10:00] we know that this played a part in the death. It's next to impossible to prove. So that's why they don't worry about it. But they do worry about it failing because it seems to be an easier case to prove. Does that make sense?
[:[00:10:16] Andrew Pace: And if you're going to find the correct medical professionals who will actually be a expert witness, exactly. So, I look at when John's Manville came out with formaldehyde free fiberglass insulation, what was that 10 years ago, within the first month of them bringing this out, they had a buy full page ad in the trade publication saying, we didn't do this for any health reasons.
[:[00:10:48] Eric Goranson: Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. It's crazy how that stuff gets laid out in the media and how they want to have that stuff in their PR campaign sometimes, [00:11:00]
[:[00:11:13] Andrew Pace: Why do we continue to use these things, but that's, this is the industry we're in.
[:[00:11:30] Eric Goranson: Is there stuff that you go, wow, this is crazy.
[:[00:11:54] Andrew Pace: Flooring is number one because it's a large area you're dealing with. Yep. [00:12:00] And it's usually a thicker material. So thicker materials will off gas longer, and then you have your walls, your wall finishes, paints and coatings. Cabinetry. Cabinetry is a huge one that is, again, not, people don't think about too much, but every time you open up a cabinet to grab a plate, you get that big rush of formaldehyde right in the face, and then your own personal furnishings, your furniture, your window treatments, things like that.
[:[00:12:48] Andrew Pace: So we really focus on that 90%.
[:[00:13:05] Caroline Blazovsky: So you're always going to get volatile organic compounds that come off painting. And when you paint these things stay around for 18 months. So if you're one of those people that like likes to change your color in your house, like you change your shoes, you're in for a big chemical load just because you keep painting all the time.
[:[00:13:36] Andrew Pace: Exactly right. And this is probably going to blow the minds of some people listening today. The only reason why VOCs are regulated by the EPA is because of outdoor air pollution. There is no regulation on the books for VOCs based on human health concerns. So in the mid nineties with the VOC regulations, they started [00:14:00] reducing the amount of VOCs being manufactured by the paint companies, like the cafe standards for automobiles.
[:[00:14:33] Andrew Pace: Inside of a home, there isn't enough UV. There's not enough nitrogen to create smog. So the VOCs are irrelevant. Now, the toxicity of those VOCs, that's the key. And the industry uses the VOC number as a metric to determine whether something is safe or not. It's completely false, completely irrelevant.
[:[00:15:18] Andrew Pace: Ammonia, acetone, and butyl acetate are the three most widely used solvents in zero VOC paint formulations.
[:[00:15:30] Andrew Pace: Yeah, so if I open up a can of acetone in my office building within 15 minutes, everybody in this office building will have detectable levels of acetone in their liver, but yet that's deemed as zero VOC by the EPA and can be used in paint and not need to be disclosed.
[:[00:15:52] Eric Goranson: No, it's not the whiskey, it's the acetone.
[:[00:16:04] Eric Goranson: We need a lab to do this. I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to start. Doing less painting and more drinking. See with that house,
[:[00:16:16] Andrew Pace: Or formulate a new paint made from whiskey.
[:[00:16:22] Eric Goranson: But the problem is that I'd be out there as I'm spraying it going like this. With my mouth open, I don't need no mask.
[:[00:16:45] Caroline Blazovsky: There's Eric with his passion back there. Chug along. So Andrew has a passion, so I'll let him tell you what it is. And this is a passion of Eric's. It's not necessarily a passion of mine, but I think they're going to teach me a little bit today. So it's good. [00:17:00] So tell us.
[:[00:17:08] Andrew Pace: That I've never been before. I wanted to research and learn everything I could possibly learn about chemistry, about building materials, how things go together after doing this now for 30 years, I'm still learning every single day, but I am a I am just a sponge for information. Nice. Back in 1995, 96 I was elected president of one of the largest commercial architectural associations in Wisconsin, and I was the youngest president ever in the country for this organization.
[:[00:17:59] Andrew Pace: So [00:18:00] I looked at the back of the bar and I said, yeah, I'll take a Dewars and water. A Dewars is a type of blended Scotch and I thought I'm going to look cool. I'm going to be drinking a Dewars in water. I have no idea what it tastes like, but it doesn't matter. I love it. I fell in love with it. And it was just, it was all, I was to say downhill, but it was actually uphill from there because I learned so much a very good friend of mine Frank he was a Scotch snob.
[:[00:18:46] Andrew Pace: Wait, let's say that word again.
[:[00:18:50] Andrew Pace: A Scotch whiskey sommelier. Wow.
[:[00:19:03] Andrew Pace: It's my desire to learn more. It's my desire to Dig deep into things. And I find that my passion and my love for helping my clients live in a healthy home I have the exact same passion for sharing things that I've learned with others. And I've learned so much about whiskey over the last 20 years that now I actually do private events.
[:[00:19:28] Caroline Blazovsky: So
[:[00:19:30] Caroline Blazovsky: as an amateur. Cause Eric knows stuff because I know nothing. Okay, what is the most important thing I need to know as an amateur? And then you can tell Eric what he needs to know as a professional. Professional drinker.
[:[00:19:47] Andrew Pace: Any way you like to drink whiskey is your way. And that's the right way. Don't let anybody ever tell you that you have to drink it neat. You have to drink it over an ice cube. You got to drink it with water. You drink it the way [00:20:00] you like to drink it. And I remember when I was getting my certificate, the woman who was conducting the last course she was from Poland.
[:[00:20:15] Caroline Blazovsky: God. I love
[:[00:20:39] Andrew Pace: You can add in a drop of water, you add in one drop of water, you look at the glass and you can actually see the alcohol swirling. That's an exothermic reaction at the alcohol is actually heating up because of the water. And what will happen is the ethanol will start to leave the glass and you'll get hit with these base notes of what the whiskey actually [00:21:00] is.
[:[00:21:00] Caroline Blazovsky: VOCs are leaving the glass?
[:[00:21:03] Caroline Blazovsky: They are,
[:[00:21:06] Caroline Blazovsky: Correct.
[:[00:21:24] Andrew Pace: 3, 000 different expressions. And that's only from 115 distilleries? Here in the United States, we've got close to 1, 500 whisky distilleries. Oh yeah. So this number is going up rapidly.
[:[00:21:55] Andrew Pace: It's perfect. That is cool.
[:[00:22:10] Andrew Pace: Exactly.
[:[00:22:32] Andrew Pace: And so this is why most people will drink bourbon. over a glass of ice because that ice cube as it melts will actually provide that same exothermic reaction. The colder the spirit is, the more shut down the alcohol is. But though, there are whiskey purists that say you got to drink a neat, because if you don't experience that Kentucky hug, you're not really getting a good drink of whiskey.
[:[00:23:09] Andrew Pace: So, which is actually interesting because I would say of those who I've known over the years, people who are bourbon drinkers.
[:[00:23:32] Andrew Pace: I'll take but see, I
[:[00:23:35] Andrew Pace: Oh, there you go. That's why you go. So
[:[00:23:50] Caroline Blazovsky: TV learned stuff all the time on the show. It's amazing.
[:[00:24:03] Andrew Pace: doing.
[:[00:24:22] Andrew Pace: Ooh. The Obon Little Bay. Yep. I think I paid 28 for. Yeah. And it is comparable to some hundred dollar plus whiskies I've had. It's just a fantastic. Value.
[:[00:24:40] Andrew Pace: Oban Little Bay. Yeah. O B A N. They're a great value. Oh, yeah. It's the type of whiskey that's called a NAS or a non age statement.
[:[00:25:05] Andrew Pace: The oldest can be, a hundred years old. So it's a big push now in the Scotch whisky industry to use what are called no age statements because it allows people. To taste whiskeys all over the board without getting influenced by an age statement, thinking it's going to be better because it's older.
[:[00:25:33] Eric Goranson: And without taking into account the actual taste.
[:[00:25:45] Andrew Pace: And I think the 18 year old was our favorite. The 21 just didn't, for me, it didn't taste right. So it doesn't necessarily mean the older, the better. It just means more expensive.
[:[00:26:01] Andrew Pace: Exactly right.
[:[00:26:15] Caroline Blazovsky: It could be wall material, maybe a cock, maybe paint. So shot. And then, okay. Five favorite.
[:[00:26:27] Caroline Blazovsky: Yeah. And I want to see, I want to see what Eric's got over there, Eric, for some reason, I can't see you full bore. I need to be able to see you.
[:[00:26:41] Caroline Blazovsky: And what do you have in
[:[00:26:52] Andrew Pace: Oh, it's well, it affectionately called the cream in your coffee because I'm the it's like Irish cream, but made with bourbon.
[:[00:27:01] Caroline Blazovsky: Oh, then I'm your
[:[00:27:04] Eric Goranson: Yeah, it's good.
[:[00:27:10] Eric Goranson: Oh, Eric. I'm cheating that way. I'm cheating that way because I got a home like six hours ago from a going away party last night. So
[:[00:27:23] Eric Goranson: So I had to hit the brakes on something. So Eric was in
[:[00:27:40] Andrew Pace: Professional. See, I sang in a heavy metal band in high school, yeah, but we, we were just doing covers of Iron Maiden and, Black Sabbath.
[:[00:27:56] Eric Goranson: exactly.[00:28:00]
[:[00:28:03] Eric Goranson: there? That looks good.
[:[00:28:25] Andrew Pace: Gotcha. And so this is what I use. I like
[:[00:28:30] Andrew Pace: Yeah.
[:[00:28:33] Caroline Blazovsky: for the rockstar. We can toast David Lee Roth cause he retired. So there we go. He did. That's right. Poor David. I'm going to miss him.
[:[00:28:46] Caroline Blazovsky: It was time.
[:[00:29:06] Andrew Pace: It just means it's better for the environment. When I got started in this business in 1992, the very first manufacturer I found was a company called AFM Safecoat out of California. They still exist today as being the only manufacturer of paints and coatings that do not off gas. They'll block the off gassing of what's underneath.
[:[00:29:52] Andrew Pace: The downside is you can't just run down to the hardware store, the local paint store to get it. Most of the paint that's available is online. There [00:30:00] are some stores across the country that carry it, but most of it's being sold online. So it's difficult to get. And compared to going down to Walmart or Sherwin Williams and getting your paint, but it's definitely worth
[:[00:30:15] Andrew Pace: It used to be. It used to be, but they have a fan deck now of about 1400 colors and they'll match any other paint brand. Yeah, nice. Alright. Number two product, and I'm gonna keep it in the coatings world, is a company called Callel, C-A-L-I-W-E-L.
[:[00:31:03] Andrew Pace: He's
[:[00:31:05] Andrew Pace: Think of farmers years ago, they used to lime wash their barns once a year to get rid of the mold. Callowell invented a way to actually partially encapsulate that lime with acrylic so that the top end still stays open and active, but it doesn't.
[:[00:32:13] Eric Goranson: Nice. Do you run into any issues with that 13 pH and like metal brackets and things like that? Are there any issues with with corrosion and things like that happening, or is it all pretty good?
[:[00:32:39] Andrew Pace: And so even though it's it has a, it's like a barrier versus that
[:[00:32:44] Andrew Pace: The acrylic acts as a barrier on the surface it goes onto, but the mold stays on the outside of it. Gotcha. Or the mold the the lime. The lime does. Yeah. Yeah. And so. If you think of during construction, the average home has about 400 to 600 gallons of [00:33:00] moisture in the air, just from the building process.
[:[00:33:19] Eric Goranson: Andrew, we've had a, I'm out in Portland, Oregon.
[:[00:33:58] Andrew Pace: right?
[:[00:34:03] Andrew Pace: And I'm like, Oh boy. That actually brings up product number three, a product that we don't sell, but I recommend all the time. It's the the Huber zip system for exterior sheathing. The, what you just described, Eric, is the problem on job sites all across the country, especially now because of labor shortages.
[:[00:34:54] Andrew Pace: And, but it, it's true.
[:[00:35:14] Eric Goranson: I think a lot of people have seen the Tyvek house wrap over the last 20 years out there that they'll drive by and they'll say, Hey, what's that white stuff that's wrapped around the building? That's what I'd call the norm for people out there, but the traditional, yeah, but there's a lot of systems now out there,
[:[00:35:31] Andrew Pace: There are a number of manufacturers now making these types of Tyvek type wraps. And the idea of it is it allows vapor transmission, but doesn't allow rain to get in through it. Now, again, the problem we have is at those seams. When those seams flap in the wind and you get wind driven rain through it or snow, in our case up here in Wisconsin, you get snow blowing through those seams.
[:[00:36:19] Andrew Pace: The Huber Zip system is the exterior OSB, but it's factory treated with water repellents so that you can't get wind driven rain going through the board. And then every seam for these 4x8 sheets is going to be either taped or flashed with a liquid flashing material so it's completely sealed. And Huber has their own factory training to teach you how to install the system.
[:[00:37:06] Andrew Pace: Representation. In those situations, I'll actually switch people over to a product made by a company called SIGA, S I G A. They're a Swiss manufacturer of high performance tapes and wraps, and they make a building wrap that you can use over traditional OSB, but it's a peel and stick membrane. So you get that positive lock at the scene.
[:[00:37:30] Eric Goranson: Caroline and I were talking here geez, probably two months ago, but some of the problems when you've got, positive pressure inside the house. And then you're blowing the house wrap off of it at the bottom and actually letting snow and moisture back in because you've ballooned out the house wrap away from the structure.
[:[00:37:52] Caroline Blazovsky: And that's using like an ERV, right? So people hear about, bringing positive air and bringing fresh air. And a lot of these companies, we've all been hitting home on [00:38:00] using ERVs, but now we're learning that an ERV can actually have a downside, right?
[:[00:38:18] Caroline Blazovsky: It's like a giant rabbit hole we're in Andrew.
[:[00:39:02] Andrew Pace: You're not getting, you're not getting moisture locked in a cavity wall because that cavity wall probably was brick and stucco and there's no insulation. So, there's gotta be a happy medium. And so, I actually do find that in the building industry, there is a bumping of heads between the high performance home builders and the healthy home builders, because you'd think the two would have the same goal, but they're really different.
[:[00:39:53] Eric Goranson: That's not just a natural piece of wood in there. So there's this back and forth with some of this stuff going on. I don't want to put that. [00:40:00] Glued together stuff on every single two by four, for instance.
[:[00:40:12] Andrew Pace: Sometimes you have to use something that may have some synthetic materials in it, but at the end of the day, it's going to be a better project for it. Longer lasting, healthier for the occupant so forth. Probably my number four product that I would have people look at is an older technology.
[:[00:40:36] Eric Goranson: No, my mom's outside of that. And my mom and dad's outside of
[:[00:40:39] Eric Goranson: I know. Now,
[:[00:40:51] Andrew Pace: We're not going to bother with that. That's going to make us look too expensive. Or, the home builders didn't want to promote it, but now with wood still at, A very [00:41:00] high price for framing lumber. It's actually very cost effective to build insulated concrete form. And what that is, if you're not familiar with it, it's essentially building a house out of Lego blocks that are hollow.
[:[00:41:33] Andrew Pace: So on the outside of the house, you're going to install your side and on the inside, you're going to put up your drywall. There's no Tyvek or building wrap needed. There's no insulation needed. It completely eliminates. That thermal bridging, because now you don't have any way for that, in the middle of winter for the heat on the inside of the home to transfer to the outside or somewhere in the middle and cause condensation. Back in the day it was about 10 percent more expensive. Right now it's about the same [00:42:00] price.
[:[00:42:20] Eric Goranson: She could said that house just Is so efficient and it's so quiet. If you were building, you could build an ICF house next to a freeway and you wouldn't have that sound go through, especially if you put in, better windows and things like that, that were designed for noisy areas.
[:[00:42:41] Andrew Pace: Exactly. There was a house built a few miles away from my house. Next to a set of railroad tracks. And I was touring that house with a train going by. I didn't even know it. Yep. Now I saw a
[:[00:43:08] Eric Goranson: And they had a bode wall because you had, it was like a sale. And you could see afterwards that they had not managed that well, and they had a, they were out a couple inches in the middle of this wall because it had bowed in with the prevailing winds going in there. And I was like, that's a problem.
[:[00:43:31] Andrew Pace: Didn't take off years ago is because think of the knowledge base you need to build a concrete wall. You have to have somebody who knows framing, who knows the dynamics of concrete, and that those two are two different trades. No question. And so It takes somebody who's an engineer who has brought up their own crew as apprentices and taught them how to do it the correct way.
[:[00:44:00] Eric Goranson: no
[:[00:44:01] Eric Goranson: No question. And now that there's high performance concretes out there, there's even more stuff that you can do with some of these things. With concrete these days. So it it keeps getting a little more complex and a little more common complex with the custom mixes you can do and some of that stuff too.
[:[00:44:22] Andrew Pace: And then you can also pour a concrete that's completely permeable pavement. Yup. Use it for driveways. So just water just goes right through it. You never have to worry about salt pop outs or a water damage whatsoever.
[:[00:44:38] Andrew Pace: Exactly. So I think that's four. I think number five for me, number five for me would probably be along the lines of flooring materials. I have sold wood floors. Matter of fact, back in the early nineties, the only flooring material that I knew of.
[:[00:45:06] Caroline Blazovsky: marmolium. That's
[:[00:45:21] Andrew Pace: Yep. And when people say that the word linoleum, most people actually believe it's vinyl. No question. But the word linoleum actually means linseed and jute. And this product is still being made today the way it was made 150 years ago.
[:[00:45:45] Eric Goranson: It turned out awesome in this kitchen. So it's like a giant Jolly Ranch. Yeah, it was, yeah. Jolly Ranch Green. And they loved it. It was a kind of a vintage. House where we wanted to go for that [00:46:00] forties fifties look with it and it turned out awesome, but easy stuff to put down. You got to know that you have to have somebody that knows what they're doing, but it's a
[:[00:46:09] Andrew Pace: And now as you experienced with it, they have some pretty wild colors, right? I have to tell my clients, be very careful in the color you choose because this floral probably lasts as long as the house itself. And that's what they love. I had a client that did in a kitchen, they did half bright yellow and half bright red, and they met right in the middle of the zigzag.
[:[00:46:36] Caroline Blazovsky: the university of Southern California, my Alma mater colors it's wake up every day and be like, fight on, it's Oh
[:[00:46:45] Caroline Blazovsky: God.
[:[00:46:52] Andrew Pace: You're not adding any other microban or anything else on there that's causing a formaldehyde problem. It's just it's [00:47:00] naturally antibacterial because the linseed oil that oxidizes off it over time. So just a very safe material, very effective, very durable. And again it's been made today the same way it was 150 years ago.
[:[00:47:25] Eric Goranson: Ah, that is great flooring. And what, is there stuff that you're seeing out there now that is starting to get on the healthier side with flooring?
[:[00:47:47] Andrew Pace: So there's two products that came out in the last few years that I've actually loved now.
[:[00:48:17] Andrew Pace: So that's been a huge. Huge product for us. I probably have that product installed now in about 200 health houses across the country. And these are homes that are being built or remodeled for people with extreme sensitivities. And if they can tolerate that product, we all can.
[:[00:48:40] Eric Goranson: I've seen some installers out there. Instead of cutting and snapping this stuff they're throwing it on their saw. Are we getting into a silica problem when you've got a stone core material and somebody who's using a saw with no dust collection on it out on a job site? I'm [00:49:00] curious to see if we're running into any unknown silica problems.
[:[00:49:31] Andrew Pace: However, I do recommend for my clients that all pieces be cut outside, not in the house. So it's not lingering for any period of time that dust can linger for two years after project. Yep.
[:[00:49:43] Andrew Pace: So that's, that is a great question. When we, when I test
[:[00:49:49] Caroline Blazovsky: And when I say that every house, it's odd if I don't find it has some sort of silica particulate in the air, some extensively higher that needs to be addressed. [00:50:00] And I do find a lot of it comes out of byproduct of when people have done construction, it ends up in the duct work and it's just never cleaned out.
[:[00:50:19] Caroline Blazovsky: And you've got your printer right next to you. Some people have multiple printers and they're breathing it in. So that's a really big problem with silica. It's constantly in samples. And we constantly have it. So
[:[00:50:40] Eric Goranson: We've never looked for it. I had this dead phone. Are you there? Hello. And you could hear them going, Oh, we better get with legal on this too. But it was just this dead silence. So then I'm like, huh. Interesting. Nobody knows.
[:[00:51:02] Andrew Pace: And, but these are things that we have to ask. And this is, as all of us here, we are if anything we're scientists as well. And we're trying to help. Our clients live in healthier homes, but we have to do this research for them. . Yeah. And that's what I get paid for.
[:[00:51:34] Andrew Pace: Or, how do I do this without poisoning my kids? . Yeah.
[:[00:51:38] Andrew Pace: manufacturer. And that's
[:[00:51:54] Caroline Blazovsky: And by doing this, we educate the companies, because the companies listen to our show and they say, Wow. This is important to people. [00:52:00] We care about this. So,
[:[00:52:17] Eric Goranson: And maybe the flooring installers upstairs, he's actually creating a bigger problem than what's going on downstairs and all of a sudden all the air tests could be off because the flooring installers up there with the chop saw knocking out flooring
[:[00:52:34] Caroline Blazovsky: S. So it's just there. And where does it come from?
[:[00:52:52] Andrew Pace: It will. No, I love that. I love that. And I certainly will reach out to the folks that I know. And Cal had asked that same question and I, and it's up to us. [00:53:00] It's up to people like us to ask these questions because homeowners don't have the connections. They don't. They don't know the general lingo to get through a conversation.
[:[00:53:26] Andrew Pace: It's sand, glass, and mineral oil, the three ingredients in Kanoff insulation. I actually contacted Kanoff and said you do realize that there is a. Industrial mineral oil, which is very toxic to humans. And there's also a a safe organic, which one are you using? And they said, I don't know.
[:[00:53:48] Eric Goranson: And if they don't know, I got, I have an idea what they're using.
[:[00:54:05] Andrew Pace: Wow. That's crazy. That's crazy. So it pays to ask questions, again, for most homeowners, they just don't have the They don't have the knowledge base to start with. And so that's why they hire folks like me to make sure that they're, that I'm their advocate and I'm finding out for them.
[:[00:54:21] Andrew Pace: is
[:[00:54:22] Andrew Pace: is awesome. I know we're running
[:[00:54:44] Andrew Pace: Actually based upon testing that I have done, because I actually do a formaldehyde test called a frat test, a formaldehyde release attenuation test.
[:[00:55:17] Andrew Pace: And there's some arguments to be made that plywood is more structurally sound than OSB. But I think now with, like the AdvanTech material that Huber makes, we have seen, no problems with that, with swelling. Using as a floor sheet, the material, I think years ago, the thought process was because plywood has a solid piece of wood on the surface, there's less likely a chance for any of that adhesive to get out via off gassing, but.
[:[00:55:53] Caroline Blazovsky: How about vapor transportation? So for example, we've always heard that OSB does not permit moisture [00:56:00] to transmit as easily as plywood does. So that's always been a concern.
[:[00:56:10] Andrew Pace: boy, that's, that, that's a good question. I have to admit my school of thought is I'd rather build a home that is a steel box completely free of air getting in, except for where I want it to come in, which is the argument for insulated concrete form construction because air only comes in where I want it to come in and therefore it's not going to be a problem in those areas where it's not supposed to come in.
[:[00:57:02] Andrew Pace: Gotcha. It's like paint.
[:[00:57:27] Andrew Pace: If we were using cabinet grade, Baltic birch for sheathing, it'd be different story.
[:[00:57:38] Andrew Pace: Exactly.
[:[00:57:47] Eric Goranson: And I'm like, Oh, that's a little spongy for me. I don't like that.
[:[00:58:05] Caroline Blazovsky: And so we can look at it and go, you can take that right back where you got it from, but unfortunately that's why they need us to advocate for them for sure.
[:[00:58:21] Andrew Pace: Just everything was perfect. Everything had to be right. Now, I've softened my approach on this because there's got to be some leeway. There's got to be some give and take. We strive for tolerance. Now this is the reason why there is no such thing as a healthy home metric. There are green homes, energy efficient, sustainable, and so forth.
[:[00:58:49] Caroline Blazovsky: friend of mine
[:[00:59:04] Andrew Pace: And people would buy his book, they would hire him as a consultant to build a healthy home, and they would say, you know what? It didn't work for me. And they'd sue him because it's his fault. Wow! So, we have to say, everything is based upon your own personal tolerance. But we've got to give some leeway because we know that even if I buy the best product in the world, if the crew doesn't install it correctly, everything's out the window, and vice versa, I can have the best crew in the world, but if it's a lousy product, it's still going to be a lousy product.
[:[00:59:54] Eric Goranson: No question. No question. So Andrew. If people want to track you down, what is the [01:00:00] best way to do that for our listeners out there that go, okay, I want more
[:[01:00:19] Andrew Pace: That's also a way to get right to my consulting services. I would probably spend 75 percent of my day consulting with clients all over the world, helping them not only build a healthy home, but just live in a healthier space. And although I've got 25 houses under construction right now across the country in various stages, most of my clients are people who are booking me for a 15 minute or a 30 minute conversation on trying to find the healthiest hide glue for a wood application or something, to that matter, they just, they're looking for healthier materials.
[:[01:01:08] Eric Goranson: let's toss up the name of your podcast out there too.
[:[01:01:13] Andrew Pace: Thank you. It's called non. Toxic environments. Three words. That's simple. That's simple. And you can find it on all the all the locations. You find any podcast. I
[:[01:01:28] Caroline Blazovsky: I'm very lucky.
[:[01:01:36] Caroline Blazovsky: I'm Eric G and I'm Caroline B.
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